"I could not help but think that somewhere along the way we had missed what is radical about our faith and replaced it with what is comfortable. We were settling for a Christianity that revolves around catering to ourselves when the central message of Christianity is actually about abandoning ourselves."
David Platt wrote about a 'Puddle of Tears' in Chapter One. He wrote about a Church who had been gathering in secret, some walking for miles to get there, arriving at different times so they would not draw attention to their meeting. While gathering to pray, they
"went to their knees, and with their faces on the ground, they began to cry out to God. Their prayers were marked less by grandiose theological language and more by heartfelt praise and pleading. 'O God, thank you for loving us.' 'O God, we need you.' They audibly wept before God as one leader after another prayed. ...I saw puddles of tears in a circle around the room."
A few questions for you to think about and comment your thoughts, after reading this chapter, are as follows:
What do you think about the picture of the Asian Church he illustrated in the Puddle of Tears?
How does the American church define success?
If you had to go to Church in secret, where there is no air-conditioning, no plush seats after having to walk miles, and no beautiful music, would you still go?
How is following Christ costly to you?
Why do you think people choose to stop following Jesus?
When we begin to rationalize passages that demand our obedience, what are we really doing?
Platt, David. (2010). Radical. Colorado Springs, CO: Multnomah Books.
Although I have refused to be a part of "Casual" Christianity, I think I supposed that being a believer here in America just happened to be comfortable. I never questioned it really. How wrong could I be! I think I have unknowingly bought into the idea of successful churches being growing and dynamic, active with programs for developing us spiritually, caring for our children as well as Sr. adults. I thought it was important to have a nice, clean building to meet in, although it didn't matter what the size was, or how elegant it may or may not be. Have we made it too easy for people to just come, no strings attached? To be involved without commitment? Have I been guilty of inviting people to church or to a small group rather than to Christ? Sometimes I have more questions than answers......
ReplyDeletei think this book is a much needed wake-up call from the "Christian American Dream" and the churches that make us believe its God's will for us to just be comfortable and happy. I believe in that way, God has blessed me by bringing me to New Jersey and forcing me out of my comfort zone a little already. Shamefully though, I haven't done much more than think. True Godly success has nothing to do with quality of sound system, size of the church building or number of members. I feel like a lot of churches get disillusioned by membership as a measure of success.... when membership is nothing without discipleship. Almost all churches here in new jersey require you to take a membership class before joining that goes over the core doctrine. Even then though, baptism and acceptance is only a place to start. We should make it more a priority to feed that hunger for the WORD for new believers.
ReplyDeleteI keep thinking about Paul's writings in Philippians, "For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH - " Philippians 3:3-4
"But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider EVERYTHING A LOSS compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things, I consider them rubbish that I may gain Christ..."php3:7-8
Worship by the spirit of God - not by the cool music
Glory in Christ - not in the church membership growth or amount of money raised
I've recognized these issues before - but I'm guilty of doing nothing about it. We as a church need God's forgiveness for trying to do it on our own and his mercy and grace to use us for His glory.
I think in today’s churches, we have taught that ‘we are followers of Christ’ and almost everyone has heard the message that we should ‘pick up our cross and follow him’. However we have not been shown how we should do that. We have been shown (not taught) that our relationship with God and our attendance in Church is for our own benefit. I feel like I can compare it to the parenting phrase “do as I say, not as I do”.
ReplyDeleteI also cannot help but feel like we have dumbed down the Message of Jesus in order to make it more appealing to the many ‘lost souls’ out there. Jesus did not make it easy for people who wished to follow Him. He spoke to the crowds in parables that only those who wanted to understand Him would. One day Jesus was asked why he spoke to people in parables. Jesus replied, “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand” (Matthew 13:13). I think perhaps this is why many followers choose to stop following. The message they are hearing from Church, is not the Message that is shown. They see nothing but gimmicks in an attempt to draw in more people. When perhaps the people who they have already ‘saved’ are neglected and not shown how to live according to Gods Word.
They are building another Church within 3 miles of where we live. Every time I would pass by the new Church I would feel sick in my stomach. I was revolted at the sight of this new Church building being erected. I was asking myself, ‘Sarah, what the heck is wrong with you? This is a building of The Lord!’ No matter how much I tried to guilt myself into feeling bad about my thoughts toward this new Church, I couldn’t do it. I finally understand today, after reading about the article David Platt came accross, about the 23 million dollar Church being built next to an article that they gave 5,000 dollars (a number that cannot even compare to 23 million) to the starving people in Sudan. I feel like our town is full of Churches!!! We do not need any more Churches, but around the world there are many people desperate for a Church (or even a decent meal). Why not go and build a Church over there, instead of here?! It is as if people here feel they deserve a new and better Church with only the best technology. After all the money they’ve tithed to the Church, they should get something out of it…right?! I mean they have to compete with all the other Churches out there if they want new members... right?! NO!!!!!
When posed with the question of if I had to walk miles to a un-air conditioned Church where I would have to sit on a hard seat (or even the floor)…would I still go? I’d like to say yes, however I honestly do not know! I’m the type of person who does not like to be inconvenienced. I already want to stay home from Church when it’s raining…what if I had to walk miles in the rain to go! HA! Now that’s a crazy thought here in America. So the real question is how is following Christ costly to me? Well, I cannot really say that it has cost me anything besides a couple hundred dollars each month. Much like joining a country club, eh?
Sarah - i completely agree with you. I think that it's unfortunately rare these days to find a spiritual leader who truly exemplifies (with his or her life) what it means to follow Christ. I think that we've been blessed by growing up in a home where mom and dad were living examples of Christ's love and charity. Nobody is perfect - we're all continually being molded into his image - but that has left an impression on our lives. It's an unfortunate thing that churches are run more like businesses than places of worship - it becomes about seeing who has the best program and the best facility. Like David points out in the book, it's the complete opposite of what Jesus did! He wanted to point out how drastic our lives need to change to follow him.... and it's not that we have to change on our own, but our hearts have to be willing to let him in and change us. We have to agree to go where he says go.
ReplyDeleteI remember one day in Dallas sitting at my apartment on Shady Brook lane and thinking; "God I want to be completely yours. I will go where you say go, and do what you say to do." Crazily enough he brought me to New Jersey. I think I was faithful in that - but as I look around me and see seas of spiritual darkness, I know that I have desired to get comfortable. I don't want to share Christ with people at work or have to go into dangerous places like Newark or Irvington.
I think there are far too few of us who yearn for the kind of spiritual walk that challenges us and can lead us into the unknown. Those of us and pastors who do understand are perhaps too afraid to demand it from our own churches because what if everyone leaves and goes to the church next door? Or the new one with the bright & shiny building they're building 3 miles way?
As David Platt puts it; "Pick up an instrument of torture and follow me. This is getting plain weird... and kind of creepy... As if this were not enough, Jesus finishes his seeker-sensitive plea with... 'any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple'...sounds a lot different than 'admit, believe, confess, and pray a prayer after me.'"
Country-club Christianity? Hardly. Besides, people get offended if you even talk about tithing too much in church! Give up everything? That's just crazy!
And it nags at me... could I give up everything if I was asked? All those years of schooling? The stable job with the upward track?
Well, all in all I'd say that this book is off to a good start. Personally, I found Chapter 4 to be the most profound so far (I've only read up to that chapter). With that said, I find it really ironic that this is coming from a pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention, where according to Katherine, you basically become a member of a church by walking up an aisle and filling out a card.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time though, it's really refreshing to hear it too. Do we really have the guts to do what those believers in Asia do? Ducking our heads in the back of car, having to meet in a shuttered room? I don't know if I could do that right now, but maybe that's the point he is trying to get across: don't worry about yourself, if you really love God and follow him, he will take care of you.
We don't have alot of megachurches here in Jersey, but we definitely have a few potential ones on the horizon. Just getting people to come to church up here is a chore, and to keep them in the fold you have to cater to their preferences. I also have to say that I've never heard a pastor say out loud that they are all about numbers instead of message.
One final thing before I find myself just rambling on... The more megachurches that form, the worse it will get because they become almost a cult of personality where people are attracted to either the pastor or the type of worship rather than the actual teaching/discipleship. (cough Joel Osteen cough)
WOW!
ReplyDelete1st---You guys are soooo smart. I feel like I'm reading a dissertation with each comment.
2nd---The questions:
A)Asian tears----It could be anywhere. I think of Katrina, World Trade Center. Unfortunately it takes those types of circumstances before we are humbled enough to admit that we NEED God. In America we can do almost anything by ourselves. Work hard, get our degree, get a job, work hard, have babies, save money and then we retire with our pensions-----but look at how our economy is changing!
I just read that automakers are afraid of the future because the new generation doesn't care about status. Better mpg, eco-friendly, and cheap are what we like.
Why do we need to cry out to God with fury and passion when everything is honkey dory???
I know I don't! I'm singing in the streets (with my clothes on though) PRAISE GOD THANK YOU JESUS----and deep down inside---I'm so amazing (yes, I used the word I).
But obviously the difference is we can worship where we choose---some ppl cant..
B) Secret Church--
Yes I would. Honestly I would.
C)Success---
Any "good" church would say saving souls, sending money to those in need, blah blah blah. And each "culture" here in the US has its own success table. If a traditional Baptist church tried to do the same things in LA here, they wouldn't work----so you have to ask
Is it the programs or the culture thats failed?
I would say according to RADICAL it would be the church people and their 'ideas' that fail, instead of having "God" ideas.
That saying, maybe the 'culture' aspect is being paid too much attention---or instead of culture more appropriately---being hip and cool.
Why are churches dying???? They're not hip and cool.
Why would I goto a church that's not intouch with the real world?
Isn't that what the Asian believers were mourning about??? The real world! Their real and current pursacutions and trials. They were in it. They were involved! They were they! It was happening to themselves---not someone 4000 miles away.
so in some ways a successful church is the "hippest and coolest church"---in american standards.
D)Costly??
Following Christ is never 'costly"---I could be a secret believer and love the Lord with all my heart and soul and it not cost me a thing.
Possible saccrifice is costly. Losing close friends and relatives to sharing Christ is costly. Sharing Christ at work and losing your job is costly.
Being a LOUD christian is costly---because the more people who hear you gives you more possibilities than someone or some group won't like what you're saying.
In LA, I could get known as a "crazy" Christian---and we know how hollywood likes the crazies. Tom cruise jumps on a couch and suddenly everyone hates him. Mel Gibson speaks the truth and everyone hates him (maybe a good thing to take note of it not to speak truthfully while intoxicated).
ReplyDeleteBasically its our fear of rejection by people we either love or want to impress that is expensive to our earthly lives.
E) Stop following Jesus
Wow! That's an entire Bible study and years of psychotherapy in a minute.
Selfishness maybe?? Importance of earthy life opposed to after and eternal life.
Be a buddist while on earth and Christ foller when dead?
F)Rationalizing
Uh....hmm.
Here's a thought. If I really loved JESUS with all my heart, I'd give away everything and be a fox with no hole. So since I haven't done that----do I really love JESUS.
No. I don't. Of course I love JESUS, pray to him, ask for guidance and strength for obedience....But I haven't shown ultimate love.
It makes sense.
If there is NO greater love than to give up my life for someone else's life----there is no great love than to give up my earthy life, for my eternal life.
So here's the question for everyone around the world---
Since we've come to grips with ourselves that we're not willing to give everything up and be a homeless Jesus-lover-hippy. What are we to do?
We've admitted that we won't do that? So what-----we go down the list of what we will do.
i will-
TITHE----yes---or maybe as I can
SERVE---yes---if i have time and amnot tired
BELIEVE---oh heck yes, I can believe all day long---unless I'm confused.
OBEY---of course----unles it's something I'm struggling with....but that's ok cause I'm just sinning and sin is normal.
yada yada---we get the point.
So that's all it boild down to----
What are we comfortable giving up??
So therefore as Christian our lives are merely learning to be more comfortable (no lazy boyz to recline on in service????really???) where we once were uncomfortable (man i miss those lazy boyz)...
SO I'll leave everyone with a question and my thought---
What would happen if all Christians gave up everything and followed God?
I think "Pentacost" would occur for a short period of time until our eathly desires kicked in again and we decided on security and the idea of having things for 'ourselves' not everyone----
oh yea----on more thought to ponder.
ReplyDeletefrom church last night a little tidbit i heard.
if a doctor tells a patient that if he/she does not change his/her lifestyle they will die early----only 1 our of 7 people will change.
interesting huh---
i wonder how that translates to Christians and our spiritual walk....obeying the Holy Spirit.
Mom, I sometimes have more questions than answers also! I think everyone invites people to come to their church in hopes of them converting to ‘their way’. Most would rather leave it up to the church and brush their hands clean of the situation. Who wants to do the dirty work themselves? After all, if it does not work out then the friendship with that person will not be affected. I think a lot of people are looking to the church for answers, when the church is fallen just as the rest of the world. Instead, we should be looking to the Bible, God’s Holy Word. For in that book lies all the answers our hearts seek to know! What we are talking about here is all the reason’s I could not attend a church regularly a few years ago. I longed for the perfect church. All I could see was something I did not want to take part in. It was not until God prepared my heart for the church we are at now that I understood. There is no perfect church. I love my church family now but find that it has flaws all the same. I never found God in a church. I did not find Him in a Christian self-help book. Where I did find him was at home with family reading His Word.
ReplyDeleteKatherine, I also am thankful that Jeff and I were raised in homes where our parents not only taught us how to live according to Christ, but showed us too. I too have asked myself if Jeff and I could give up everything, if it is God’s Will. I used to say YES, easily, because we did not have much to give up. Now, we have our own home and a stable job. We have finally made friends here and belong to an awesome church family. We have settled in and made ourselves comfortable. I honestly can say that I COULD give everything up for him right now, if he asked. It would be hard, I know, but God has given me a heart for adventure. I have no doubt that you too will do what God asks of you!
Evan, I too believe that these ‘mega churches’ are a bad idea. It makes it too easy for people to slip in and out unnoticed. I feel that churches were built to symbolize the body of Christ! Churches are supposed to help the widows and the orphans. It is a family that works together to help one another. Church has now become more about the ‘ME’ than the ‘US’.
Brian, what GREAT insight God has given you about the American church. I see it everywhere! People are trying to make Jesus hip and cool. Jesus cannot be held to the world’s standard. What the churches are trying to say is that Jesus can fit into your life along with everything else. They’re using gimmicks to try and bait people into believing. Then when they actually read the message of Jesus (if they even read their bible on their own) they are turned off to it. ‘Hey, this doesn’t look very cool to me. This dude was freakin’ nailed to a cross, man. ‘ I never go into Christian book stores anymore because I see a plethora of lame memorabilia, like I’m caught in some Christian tourist trap!
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i will-
TITHE----yes---or maybe as I can
SERVE---yes---if i have time and am not tired
BELIEVE---oh heck yes, I can believe all day long---unless I'm confused.
OBEY---of course----unles it's something I'm struggling with....but that's ok cause I'm just sinning and sin is normal
*Great stuff right there!!!
Very interesting --- “if a doctor tells a patient that if he/she does not change his/her lifestyle they will die early----only 1 our of 7 people will change”.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGreat comments everyone! I just did a huge information download reading all of these. You all had some really good points. It’s pretty obvious that you guys are much smarter than me. As far as my comments on chapter one…here it goes.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading chapter 1, I felt pretty convicted. I felt like I really miss the mark in a lot of ways as a Christian. After a few days of letting it sink in, here are my thoughts on the discussion. What really stood out to me was the church in Asia that prayed their hearts out. I thought to myself, “What if we were praying like that?” I feel like I tend to pray simple prayers that really don’t amount to much like, “God help me with this or that, bless this or that.” I wholeheartedly believe if we would get down on our knees and really pray our hearts out, we would see a huge difference in lives because God would begin to answer our prayers.
ReplyDeleteI think too often we try to come up with ways to do good, to save people, and to grow our church. The problem with that is man is inherently evil and God is the one doing the saving. This book calls all the gimmicks and plans we come up with to be “good Christians” to the mat. If we really want to see our friends turn their lives to Jesus and see the church grow, we need to be down on our knees humbling ourselves before God begging him for these things. Even if everything in life is great, and everyone’s healthy and free, we should realize that the guy in the cubicle next to us is going to spend an eternity in a devil’s hell if God doesn’t save him. We have a whole country full of people that are denying Jesus and will suffer this fate. This, if anything, should bring us to tears and trembling before God begging for his Spirit to seek after the lost. I feel like this humble prayer means more to God then some hip and upbeat song that says “He loves us! O He loves us!”
Why do people stop following Jesus? They want to live their life their way and not be obedient. I know this from experience. I wanted to do my own thing, and how can I follow Jesus and still be living in sin. Pretty soon you feel so far away from God that you don’t even think He’s real anymore. And if you admit He’s real, it’s a scary thought because you’ve been sinning against Him all this time. Another reason could be that something bad happens, and you haven’t made a decision to really trust God through the good and the bad. You start saying well if there’s a God how could he let this happen to me. You should have made a decision long ago that if God takes away everything including my life, I’ll trust Him because my life is His anyways.
Frankly I could care less about the church facility. I’m a guy. I just assume have church outside with a group around a campfire and an open Bible. But it ticks me off when we are building these huge facilities that are really unnecessary. What a waste. Keep in mind the Bible instructs the church the take care of the widow and the orphan. We are doing such a bad job at this that the government thinks they need to.
I’m not sure how we are defining success, but my guess is that “showing up on Sunday and Wednesday” indicates success. But here is how it should be defined. Sometimes I think we walk out of church and ask, “What did you think of the service?” We make a few profound comments and walk out the same person we were before church. If our lives aren’t being changed outside of church, what’s the point of even going to church. If we were really being disciple and changed then that would spill over into our workplace and our families and are government. That’s not what we’re seeing here in America. We are seeing filth in the work place (Christians and non Christians alike), Christian families split up, and tyranny in our so-called republic. According to this measuring stick, we fail miserably as a church here in America.
What it boils down to is this. I’m not on my knees praying. I’m too busy worrying about my house, my PS3, my job, whether or not LSU is going to win on Saturday, etc. This has to change, and God’s going to have to make the change in me. I believe the first step to this is 2 Chronicles 7:14.
ReplyDeleteYea---ps3's are really cool....lol
ReplyDeleteSeriously though, I totally agree with taking care of widows and orphans----ouch...I think we're way off the mark there. No wonder teh world thinks we're a bunch of stuck up hypocrites---well, because we are.
Tru dat!
I'm so glad we're all talking about these things! I think for each of us there have been things that we've observed in church that don't sit well with us. Yes, our churches are inevitably flawed because they are made up of flawed people... BUT this does not give us an excuse to accept it. I think in today's church ("American Dream Christianity") we've lost that sense of corporate sin and corporate responsibility. As Sarah mentioned... it becomes all about ME and YOU instead of US. That's why our churches spend so much time and money over appeasing upset patrons and smoothing ruffled feathers over carpet color... because most pastors accept it! They don't want to lose the people. I think Paul was encouraging, yet also firm in calling out sin in the early church.
ReplyDeleteSo - what do we do about it? I think Jeff has hit the nail on the head... I think what God desires is not our fancy buildings and programs, but our heartfelt and humble prayers...
Also - I think to Evan's point, if deep down in our hearts, right now - we wouldn't be willing to give up everything to go wherever God sends us... that's okay... as long as we desire to change and come humbly before God. If we see this in ourselves but refuse to change, we're refusing Christ. Our faith is a journey and God doesn't expect us to be perfect right now... but if our hearts are in the right place, and we humbly seek Him, HE will make those changes in us... HE will refine us like silver... put us through the fire to burn away the dross... so that we can be a better reflection of HIM. Not so we can be a better reflection of the American Dream.
ReplyDeleteI think we also have to be willing to go into the fire even when our churches may say it's not necessary.
*******************************************
We've admitted that we won't do that? So what-----we go down the list of what we will do.
i will-
TITHE----yes---or maybe as I can
SERVE---yes---if i have time and amnot tired
BELIEVE---oh heck yes, I can believe all day long---unless I'm confused.
OBEY---of course----unless it's something I'm struggling with....but that's ok cause I'm just sinning and sin is normal.
*****************************************
So true... oh how we must bring sorrow to Our Lord.
You all have made so many very good points! This book is so convicting! The Asian believers put me to shame. When our church announces the annual mission trip down the Amazon, I often joke that I am called to stay home and pray. I’m not the adventurous type like you, Sarah. The truth is, I really don’t want to go. If I had to walk miles to get to church, if there were hard seats and no A/C, I would still attend. (After all, I’ve endured those “hardships” to watch the Tigers play in Tiger Stadium.) But if my life were in danger because of my faith, if my livelihood was in jeopardy, well, now, that’s another story.
ReplyDeleteChurches today measure success by “growth.” How many new believers have we recruited? How many new, young families have joined? (The old folks don’t count.) I wonder how many new converts are true believers and how many join the church because they have been lured by our the advertising campaigns of some churches…the entertainment on Sunday morning, the emotional appeals, the promises of prosperity, the persuasive sermons…when in fact, conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit. No wonder people drop out of church---probably a lot of them really did not have a sincere change of heart in the first place. I thought the author made an interesting point in noting that, when the crowds around Jesus began to become large, Jesus issued challenges that caused many to stop following Him. He weeded out the ones who weren’t really sincere in their commitment.
I’m with you, Jeff. I think we need to get down on our knees and cry out to the Lord---for ourselves as well as for unbelievers. I know I am not what I need to be, but God will have to change my heart to make my desires in line with His. I’m glad that, as y’all pointed out, we don’t have to be perfect right now; He who began a good work in us will carry it on to completion…(Phil.1:6) God isn’t finished with me yet.
"How many new, young families have joined?" --When you said the "old folks don't count", I have also wondered how many older people have stopped going to church because the music is too loud or they've changed things up too much! It seems the "American Church" is catering to the people's preferences (right now, trying to cater to what is hip and cool). I think that is why there are so many broken churches out there. You cannot appease everyone’s needs and still have a working church. That is why I believe Paul designed the early churches around the message of Jesus Christ. He was not afraid to offend or denounce a church when they were in the wrong! I agree with you, Mom (Margaret), that God isn’t finished with any of us yet! If we’re still living and breathing, he has a plan to use us!
ReplyDeleteAfter reading this first chapter, my prayer for myself (and for each of us) is this; that each day, in our hearts we would give up all earthly desires (while they even may be "good" things), and be filled with His spirit instead. If God grants us our earthly desires, it will be like sprinkles on a cake! (not the icing... b/c for me the icing is part of the cake!)
ReplyDeleteI have full faith that as we all are convicted of things in our lives... of desires that at times "trump" our love for Christ... "he who began a good work will carry it on to completion".
I'm excited to see how he will continue to change our hearts and our lives and our churches for HIS glory!
I was told by our pastor that young families are our "target demographic," and that to be a growing church, we had to be concerned with the "median age" of the congregation. That's why I said "old folks don't count." Sounds to me like we are trying to market the gospel, rather than share the good news.
ReplyDeleteKatherine,you summed it up very eloquently. (I like the icing best, too, so I can relate.) I, too, am excited to see what God has in store. I'm sure it is above and beyond anything we could imagine.
ReplyDeleteMom, you make a good point about the sincerity of the heart. It makes sense when the Bible says their will be some who believe, cast out demons, and cry "Lord, Lord," and God will say "I never knew you." My prayer is that my heart is sincere, and my faith is authentic.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I wish I could take a pill and be a "Super-Christian" overnight. That's the American culture coming out in me again. Mom, you and Katherine made a good point when quoting Phil.1:6. God is patient with us, and He knows how to work in our hearts.
I am so grateful for each one of you and your comments. I think we all agree that there is no "perfect" church, but we all want our lives to be fruitful and productive and bring glory to God. This book brings out some topics we may be unaware of, like how much the "American Dream" affects even our Christian life. We should all have the passion that believers in other parts of the world have for Christ. I'm sad that I don't. I love the Lord, but where is the passion? We need to all be aware of Satan prowling like a lion.
ReplyDelete"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority" Col.2:8-10